Cybersyn

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Hello.

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Welcome to our friend the computer.

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We are a I don't know Ana, what are we
a tech history podcast.

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We wrote
Alternative computing histories, but.

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But also social histories.

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Social histories.

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We're looking at stories.

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Stories
from tech history, from computing history

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that maybe not the normal stories
that get told.

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The sort of non US centric stories

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about the development of computers
and the internet.

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I am Carmilla.

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I am a research based
visual artist, writer,

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filmmaker, things of that ilk.

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And I'm Ana.

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I work in online education and I'm a web

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developer and net art curator,
but it's a mouthful.

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So I wanted to say that
I just make websites but Camila told me

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not to. You do so much more.

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I'm not like officially
any of those things,

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but I've employed myself to do them.

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So I guess. You are officially
a net curator

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and I know this
because you curated some net art of mine.

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That is true. Yeah. You're the validator

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Ana runs external pages

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which how do you
how do you explain external pages?

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External pages is an online exhibition

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space which hosts new net art.

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So it's basically

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just like an online gallery
and it's got a bunch of net art on it.

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And there's a new exhibition coming out
usually every two months,

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and I help produce that and code it
and everything else,

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anything that the artist needs help
with, I'm there for it.

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So yeah, it's been fun.

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And then Camila made

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one of the most more recent
art exhibitions

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about Project Cybersyn, which is what
we're going to talk about today.

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Come on, we want to chat about that. Yeah.

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So I yeah, I worked on this project with,
with Ana and external pages

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Called Redes, bread and justice, peaches and bananas.

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And when did we launch it.

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March, February, March 2021.

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Yeah. Definitely Lockdown times. Yeah.

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And it was, it was a project.

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So my family background is like my dad is
Chilean and I have a strong connection

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with Chile and I'm Australian,
as you probably tell by my accent,

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and I learn quite a few of my artworks.

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I sort of explore the second generation

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exiled Chilean post dictatorship
sort of idea,

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and this project was looking at

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sort of socialist

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uses of networks, computer networks

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before and after the days of the Pinochet
dictatorship.

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So it was sort of looking

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at the 2019 social uprising in Chile

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and the use of Instagram

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to document, to witness, to archive,

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to form collectives and to organize.

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But I was looking at it
kind of in the context

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of this sort of proto internet

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from before the dictatorship
called Project Cybersyn or Proyecto Cinco.

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And what we ended up doing was

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sort of creating

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through some of Ana's coding expertise

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a digital space
that you could go into that reflected

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the design of projects I've chosen.

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But in in the sort of TV screens

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and the monitors and things you saw

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in sort of Instagram like current day

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images and video,
and it was also an archive of like

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an oral history of a sort of grassroots

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Instagram account that was,

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yeah, documenting what was happening
on the ground in the protests.

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So yeah, it was kind of this
like community project as well,

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which was really cool
how that kind of community

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incentives never really sort of

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went away in terms of how it,
how the people on the ground

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like we're using the Internet, how
that never kind of like escaped the like

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feelings of the nation
and then also the ops room

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was like a huge influence of like
how the user experience was designed.

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And that's kind of like
the very famous images of projects

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I was in was the Upstream,
which was only part of the project,

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but it was very kind of the esthetic
of the seventies,

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where you had the kind of tulip chairs
which were also like an inspiration

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to a lot of Trek Trekkie stuff,
and you had big recliners,

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sort of armchairs that were part
of the mechanisms of the ops room.

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And then you had screens on the walls
and these chairs could kind of swivel

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around and perform
all sorts of things which were just to

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enable conversation, but also

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to operate the distributed economy.

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Yeah,
the project had a lot of lofty goals,

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which I guess we'll go into, which also,

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you know, stacks of utopian ideas, ideals.

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And so my project, I felt that similar.

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There was a similar sense
of kind of wanting to create

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a, a better future through networks

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that happened in 2019, 2020 as well.

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But with set projects,
I was saying they were ultimately

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never really able to fully test

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test the system
or like bring it to fruition

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because the project was cut really short
by the coup d'état in 1973.

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So and that ran through 1990.

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So we're going to talk a little bit
about this today.

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In this podcast,
we're kind of going to switch out our

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main researcher for each episode
and also for the first few

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episodes, we're focusing on these sort
of pre-Internet networks.

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So today,

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because this is based on my project,
I am the I am the researcher.

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So yes, I will get into it.

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I guess so, yeah.

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And as you said, if people know
kind of peripherally about Project

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Cybersyn, it's through the aesthetics
of this main operations room.

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So Cybersyn had several elements to it,

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but a core part was the operations room.

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So it's a kind of like a, like a war room
five, and it's called ops room, and so

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is this hexagon, a room with monitors
and information on the walls.

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There was also, I think, a

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like a rose, a pin board
or like a one of those felt boards

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where you could move around elements
of diagrams and things.

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So I sort of enjoy that.

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It's like a
like a toddlers playground something.

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Yeah.

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And then the storming material. Yes.

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That really appeals to me is not
is like all the stairs like boards.

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Just get anything down.
Any thoughts. Yeah.

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And then in the center
there was this sort of circle

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of these fiberglass chairs
and it was circular.

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So that was a hierarchical.

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And it's also this like iconic design,
seventies design.

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It was like orange wood paneling.

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The tulip chairs.

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Yeah.

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Like the ones that they used on Star Trek.

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But actually,
I don't know, Star Trek came.

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I mean, Star Trek was before this,
but I don't think

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there was actually much connection
between them.

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It might have just been the seventies.

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Yeah, the design of the seventies.

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So on these chairs.

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So yeah,
they also had like ashtrays, right?

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Built into the arms of the chairs.

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So they would have on outside,
they would have like sort of keyboards

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as part of the arm
and then the other side,

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the other arm would be an ashtray,
which was unbelievable and so significant.

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And the seventies sort of that attitude.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I, I still find it weird when
I say ashtrays that I built into things.

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I was I was catching a little fly.

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I think I was in like grease
a few years ago.

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So I was like
on one of those little airplanes.

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And there wasn't one like an ashtray
in the armrest of the airplane.

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So yeah, yeah.

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With the little metal top
that you can, like,

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push down to open and close it,
they would have it.

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So yeah, the same, that same style.

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Back in the day. Back in the day.

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So yeah, these chairs

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on the other side of the armrest
had buttons

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that could control
the information that came up

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on the screens of the room.

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And these screens were called
data feed screens.

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They look like TV monitors, but they were
actually just like displaying slide

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projections and graphs with information
that I think had been sort of

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brought in so people could go in and like

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look through it more easily.

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And the big buttons were sort of
in different shapes, squares, circles,

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diamonds, and everything in the room
was controlled by these buttons.

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And so you could click individual buttons,
but there was also sequences

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that you could use because there weren't
enough buttons, I guess.

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So, yeah.

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There was another screen in the room
that had the kind of code, you know,

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the key to

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how to how
to use the buttons to control everything.

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And the main sort of research

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and academic that has done
work on projects I was in is Adan Medina

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and she has a book

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that's called Cybernetic Revolutionaries
Technology and Politics In.

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And there's Chile and it's very good.

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And she points out that there was
a conscious design design decision

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to not use an actual keyboard
like text based keyboard,

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because in the early seventies,
typing on a keyboard was considered

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a specialized skill that mostly women
had, like trained secretaries.

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And even though this was a space
that was trying to be so egalitarian,

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there was this bias, this presumption
of who would be using the room.

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It wouldn't be the secretaries,
it would be these like

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men, people in power

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who didn't have this,
like menial skill of typing.

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And there
was also kind of a design element where

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that was sort of based on the idea of this
like gentlemen's club,

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which is I guess
also the the ashtray situation

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and kind of the casualness of the chairs
and Medina nights.

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This is a quote that the design
of the operations room illustrates

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that even futuristic visions of modernity
carry assumptions about gender and class.

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Yeah.

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Which is yeah, it's interesting
that that this wasn't

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an art like, critiqued or analyzed
so much.

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It was just kind of an assumption
about about who would be using the space.

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Yeah.

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And also it's really interesting

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to see how there was such
a intentional decision to make the design

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so different to what is like a switchboard
operator room.

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So there was actually like
hardware decision choices to make it

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look different and act differently to it
being just like a switchboard

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because that's what women used
and that's what women use during the war.

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And it's a totally different fight
that they were playing.

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It was more of like an intellectual race
of building

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technology and distributing the economy
rather than like, we're at war

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and we only have these people left
to handle these technologies.

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That's something
that's a lot more a lot higher in terms of

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labor.

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Yeah,
and I suppose we'll go into this later.

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But I mean, it was sort of a
nonhierarchical system and everybody

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was meant to have kind of input,

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but it was still

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sort of managerial decisions happening
based on this information

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that was put into input into the network.

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So yeah, I'm not sure in that sense,

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like how much was actually being changed.

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MM From kind of the hierarchy
that the preexisting hierarchy.

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So Cybersyn was originally formed

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using a few computers that, that Chile had

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and a preexisting telex network
that they then expanded upon.

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Now telex is sort of, I don't know, I was
trying to think about how to explain it.

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It's kind of almost like a fax machine.

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So each machine has a number
that you call to establish a connection,

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but in this case of the telex,

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you type out the message
on a keyboard in the machine,

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and then that message gets printed out
by the machine at the other end.

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But it also like
there has to be an operator at both ends

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to kind of make the call
and send the message

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and then pick up the call
and receive the message.

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So the main purpose

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in this early stage of Cybersyn
was to connect factories throughout Chile

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and so they could see
what's going on at all times

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and using computer technology
to make predictions and simulations

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based on data
so that everything runs effectively.

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And while interior design
was quite important to the project,

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probably the most important part
was actually

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the design
and purpose of the network itself.

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So Cybersyn was an island
administration project.

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The Allende government
was a democratically elected

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00:14:54,660 --> 00:14:55,728
socialist government.

243
00:14:55,728 --> 00:15:00,466
If their popular unity party in Chile,
which came to power in 1970,

244
00:15:00,566 --> 00:15:04,236
they were looking for ways
to reconstruct elements of the country,

245
00:15:04,236 --> 00:15:07,239
the way that things worked
in a socialist way

246
00:15:07,439 --> 00:15:09,875
to nationalize industries

247
00:15:09,875 --> 00:15:12,878
while including worker participation.

248
00:15:13,045 --> 00:15:16,315
And this economic shift
was incredibly ambitious

249
00:15:16,315 --> 00:15:20,452
and they felt like they had time to get it
done,

250
00:15:20,552 --> 00:15:25,591
which unfortunately,
spoiler alert wasn't the case

251
00:15:25,658 --> 00:15:26,158
that in

252
00:15:26,158 --> 00:15:32,164
1971, Fernando Flores, who was a minister
in the state development agency,

253
00:15:32,231 --> 00:15:35,134
had been starting to get interested
in cybernetics

254
00:15:35,134 --> 00:15:39,505
as a possible method of achieving
these sort of socialist goals.

255
00:15:39,571 --> 00:15:44,510
So we contacted Stafford BIA in the UK,
whose very famous cybernetics

256
00:15:44,610 --> 00:15:49,448
and management consulting,
and he had been theorizing about

257
00:15:49,515 --> 00:15:53,285
how cybernetics could
possibly be used in this way.

258
00:15:53,352 --> 00:15:55,921
But here for him,
Chile was really a project

259
00:15:55,921 --> 00:15:58,924
where he could see his theories
through to a practical,

260
00:15:59,091 --> 00:16:01,961
real world implementation.

261
00:16:01,961 --> 00:16:05,397
So they have like a couple of letters
back and forth and he ends up

262
00:16:05,397 --> 00:16:11,203
coming to Chile to oversee this
grand cybernetics project alongside Flores

263
00:16:11,270 --> 00:16:14,073
and a senior advisor named Role

264
00:16:14,073 --> 00:16:17,509
as well, and also a small team

265
00:16:17,609 --> 00:16:20,646
And staff would be like,
Normally I am really expensive,

266
00:16:20,646 --> 00:16:23,082
but for you I'll make an exception.

267
00:16:23,082 --> 00:16:26,585
You can just pay me $500 a day
and then as much chocolate

268
00:16:26,585 --> 00:16:29,254
wine and cigars as I need.

269
00:16:29,321 --> 00:16:29,722
And then it

270
00:16:29,722 --> 00:16:33,525
turned out that the wine and the cigars
and the chocolate actually

271
00:16:33,625 --> 00:16:36,695
was costing so much money
because they've got like

272
00:16:36,729 --> 00:16:39,732
food shortages
and embargoes against those things.

273
00:16:39,932 --> 00:16:40,766
So that was it.

274
00:16:40,766 --> 00:16:45,037
I'm not sure how good of a deal.

275
00:16:45,104 --> 00:16:46,872
So suddenly winning.

276
00:16:46,872 --> 00:16:49,108
Yeah,

277
00:16:49,108 --> 00:16:52,811
I'm going to put that in
like all my future

278
00:16:52,911 --> 00:16:56,482
work contracts.

279
00:16:56,582 --> 00:16:59,885
So he starts creating this
like cybernetic scaffold

280
00:16:59,885 --> 00:17:05,591
that will eventually become the outline
of how project Cybersyn will work.

281
00:17:05,691 --> 00:17:10,362
So we need to talk about cybernetics
to understand this.

282
00:17:10,362 --> 00:17:12,564
I guess

283
00:17:12,564 --> 00:17:14,299
pull me up on things, Ana

284
00:17:14,299 --> 00:17:18,504
if it's confusing or wrong course.

285
00:17:18,570 --> 00:17:22,975
So these theories on cybernetics
work on a viable system model,

286
00:17:22,975 --> 00:17:26,879
which is a system that is complex,
adaptive and dynamic,

287
00:17:26,945 --> 00:17:32,651
where information is fed back into itself,
which initiates further actions

288
00:17:32,751 --> 00:17:37,423
and cybernetics
really is about communication and control,

289
00:17:37,489 --> 00:17:41,493
looking at sort of automatic systems
within animals and machines,

290
00:17:41,493 --> 00:17:45,631
but also to businesses,
as in the case of management cybernetics,

291
00:17:45,631 --> 00:17:48,967
which sort of crosses
engineering and biology.

292
00:17:49,034 --> 00:17:53,539
And in many ways the normal hierarchies
of networks disrupted here.

293
00:17:53,639 --> 00:17:55,774
And there's quite a famous quote of staff

294
00:17:55,774 --> 00:17:59,211
be aware his describing
presenting this cybernetic

295
00:17:59,211 --> 00:18:02,281
graph this outline to a day
and he's going through

296
00:18:02,281 --> 00:18:06,752
all the levels and sections
and then he gets to sort of the top

297
00:18:06,819 --> 00:18:10,222
and he's about to announce to Allende
that this is where his position is

298
00:18:10,222 --> 00:18:14,760
in the system and Allende stops them
and he says, Oh, finally, the people.

299
00:18:14,827 --> 00:18:17,830
This is you know,
this project was about joining

300
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:21,400
cybernetics and socialism
and theory and politics.

301
00:18:21,467 --> 00:18:23,902
They were trying to create something
really unique.

302
00:18:23,902 --> 00:18:28,006
And and a step would be
I was really impressed that Allende

303
00:18:28,107 --> 00:18:33,145
saw this position
not as like a position of control

304
00:18:33,145 --> 00:18:35,514
that he held,
but something that, you know,

305
00:18:35,514 --> 00:18:38,584
everybody in the country could be
could be involved in.

306
00:18:38,584 --> 00:18:42,588
And because of input into this
computer network.

307
00:18:42,688 --> 00:18:45,124
Mm hmm.

308
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:47,192
But something that we have to

309
00:18:47,192 --> 00:18:51,029
remember in the background of all of this
is that during this time,

310
00:18:51,096 --> 00:18:54,700
the government is putting up
against international attempts

311
00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:59,538
to undermine and overturn
the democratically elected government.

312
00:18:59,638 --> 00:19:05,410
By 1973, this obviously escalated
to a backing of the coup

313
00:19:05,410 --> 00:19:08,914
that ended the anti government
and also in this life.

314
00:19:08,981 --> 00:19:13,152
But these attempts to undermine
the government were happening on slightly

315
00:19:13,152 --> 00:19:16,989
less devastating scales
throughout this period of time,

316
00:19:17,055 --> 00:19:20,726
which included economic blockades.

317
00:19:20,792 --> 00:19:24,596
And in the 18 months before the coup,
the CIA were secretly

318
00:19:24,596 --> 00:19:29,234
providing initiatives for anti
and they strike actions,

319
00:19:29,334 --> 00:19:34,606
particularly a conservative nationwide
truck driver strike in October 1972

320
00:19:34,606 --> 00:19:40,179
that lasted 26 days, causing labor
and supply issues throughout the country.

321
00:19:40,245 --> 00:19:43,515
And because Project Sebastian
was concerned with connecting

322
00:19:43,615 --> 00:19:45,184
factories, Allende

323
00:19:45,184 --> 00:19:49,321
turned to Fernanda Flores
and the team to see if Project Cybersyn

324
00:19:49,321 --> 00:19:54,126
could be utilized to prevent
total devastation from this strike.

325
00:19:54,193 --> 00:19:57,429
Cybersyn
at this point wasn't really operational

326
00:19:57,429 --> 00:20:01,099
and the system and the upstream
were essentially a prototype.

327
00:20:01,099 --> 00:20:05,804
But because the the telex network between
the factories was already established,

328
00:20:05,804 --> 00:20:11,710
they were able to use this real time
communication to find personnel of it.

329
00:20:11,743 --> 00:20:16,515
Bottlenecks, pinpoint where
supplies were needed and send things there

330
00:20:16,615 --> 00:20:20,953
and keep the country functioning,
essentially, at least on a basic level.

331
00:20:21,053 --> 00:20:23,889
And Allende was incredibly impressed
by this.

332
00:20:23,889 --> 00:20:28,493
And over the following months, there was
a massive growth in the projects.

333
00:20:28,527 --> 00:20:31,263
This growth caused issues in its own ways.

334
00:20:31,263 --> 00:20:35,033
With so many new people involved,
it was getting harder to keep

335
00:20:35,033 --> 00:20:38,036
the core ideals
and aims of the project intact.

336
00:20:38,237 --> 00:20:42,407
And Stafford himself
was getting very excited about

337
00:20:42,507 --> 00:20:43,108
seeing

338
00:20:43,108 --> 00:20:46,979
his theories in practice
and he started developing way more

339
00:20:46,979 --> 00:20:50,315
far reaching projects
that would have basically cybernetic

340
00:20:50,315 --> 00:20:52,951
sides, the whole country
and every element of it.

341
00:20:52,951 --> 00:20:58,457
There was various of early idea code
projects, cyber folk which would have put

342
00:20:58,457 --> 00:21:03,762
a machine in every household
that tracked happiness levels,

343
00:21:03,862 --> 00:21:07,666
which I'm not sure.

344
00:21:07,766 --> 00:21:10,769
I guess
if it's not actually monitoring you

345
00:21:10,869 --> 00:21:14,640
and your, you have control over
like what you're inputting.

346
00:21:14,706 --> 00:21:16,475
Yeah,

347
00:21:16,475 --> 00:21:18,977
it's not so bad, but

348
00:21:18,977 --> 00:21:22,180
like, like from, from decades later,

349
00:21:22,247 --> 00:21:25,250
I think we can totally see
where the issues come in.

350
00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:29,921
Something like a
I mean, it's a cute it's a cute incentive.

351
00:21:29,988 --> 00:21:31,056
It's a cute incentive.

352
00:21:31,056 --> 00:21:36,395
But practically, I think I would hate
to have my house tell me that I'm sad.

353
00:21:36,461 --> 00:21:39,431
Now. You would be telling
your house that, you know. So

354
00:21:39,498 --> 00:21:40,165
yeah.

355
00:21:40,165 --> 00:21:44,369
And then that's like back to you because
it's trying to make you happy somehow.

356
00:21:44,369 --> 00:21:47,005
I guess that would be like
the end outcome. Maybe.

357
00:21:47,005 --> 00:21:48,473
Yeah, I guess so.

358
00:21:48,473 --> 00:21:51,243
It's like, yeah, it's like some weird app

359
00:21:51,243 --> 00:21:55,580
that you check in every day and you say
it would be terrifying emotion.

360
00:21:55,614 --> 00:21:58,784
And then it gives you a reading
at the end of each month.

361
00:21:58,784 --> 00:22:01,186
And like,
I was more sad than happy this month.

362
00:22:01,186 --> 00:22:03,522
That's, that's fun. Yeah.

363
00:22:03,522 --> 00:22:06,091
And then the whole government
knows as well.

364
00:22:06,091 --> 00:22:10,128
Yeah, it would have to be anonymous,
but that's incredible.

365
00:22:10,128 --> 00:22:15,801
I mean, the fact that Cybersyn was able
to provide

366
00:22:16,001 --> 00:22:21,006
that infrastructure
where people could like, yeah,

367
00:22:21,139 --> 00:22:26,545
like you said, pinpoint
where supplies were needed and find stuff

368
00:22:26,545 --> 00:22:29,681
that they needed and bottlenecks
and things like that.

369
00:22:29,681 --> 00:22:32,851
I think that is basically
what a distributed economy is.

370
00:22:32,851 --> 00:22:36,521
That's how it's supposed to function and
that's how it's supposed to function with,

371
00:22:36,588 --> 00:22:39,424
with the rise of technology at the time,

372
00:22:39,424 --> 00:22:43,895
because that's also what
a few other projects around the world,

373
00:22:43,895 --> 00:22:49,768
cybernetic projects around the world,
were trying to achieve, socialist ones.

374
00:22:49,835 --> 00:22:50,402
So it's

375
00:22:50,402 --> 00:22:54,973
it's pretty amazing
that it even did that on a basic level.

376
00:22:55,073 --> 00:22:55,440
Yeah.

377
00:22:55,440 --> 00:23:00,779
And I mean, the telex stuff,
a lot of that was already established.

378
00:23:00,846 --> 00:23:04,149
It just wasn't being used in this way.

379
00:23:04,216 --> 00:23:05,117
So yeah.

380
00:23:05,117 --> 00:23:09,020
And it was this kind of,
I guess it's the socialist

381
00:23:09,121 --> 00:23:12,257
element
of the construction of this network

382
00:23:12,257 --> 00:23:16,027
where they were really encouraging
managers

383
00:23:16,094 --> 00:23:18,830
of each of the individual factories

384
00:23:18,830 --> 00:23:22,934
to have a say
and have input into how their factories

385
00:23:22,934 --> 00:23:26,204
connected to the whole network
of factories in China.

386
00:23:26,238 --> 00:23:30,242
So I guess when people feel like

387
00:23:30,242 --> 00:23:33,211
they have a stake or they have,

388
00:23:33,245 --> 00:23:35,714
you know,
that their opinion is being listened to,

389
00:23:35,714 --> 00:23:40,919
then they're more likely to want to use,
want to use the system and be involved.

390
00:23:40,919 --> 00:23:43,855
And then the system goes, yeah, yeah.

391
00:23:43,855 --> 00:23:48,160
Because that's that's I don't know
if you've read Oh my God, what is it?

392
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,130
The Walmart book about the distributed
economy of Wal-Mart.

393
00:23:52,164 --> 00:23:56,168
Now and how the digital operation

394
00:23:56,234 --> 00:23:59,037
of the resources in Wal-Mart

395
00:23:59,037 --> 00:24:02,407
is working in a completely socialist way

396
00:24:02,474 --> 00:24:07,712
where they do exactly this,
where they put in their data of what

397
00:24:07,712 --> 00:24:10,715
every store has,
and then when there's missing,

398
00:24:10,816 --> 00:24:15,353
when when they're low on
some in some regions, then they can get

399
00:24:15,353 --> 00:24:19,958
that transported from a different Walmart
or like a different store.

400
00:24:20,025 --> 00:24:25,263
And it distributes resources,
but it also moves

401
00:24:25,530 --> 00:24:29,100
things from one department
to another in a very efficient way.

402
00:24:29,167 --> 00:24:32,838
And they're able to kind of like
save money, but then also have like

403
00:24:32,838 --> 00:24:34,172
a very regulated way

404
00:24:34,172 --> 00:24:38,410
of all of the kind of income
that's coming into the different stores.

405
00:24:38,477 --> 00:24:41,480
And so they're working in this
very kind of like

406
00:24:41,613 --> 00:24:44,583
cybernetic socialist way

407
00:24:44,749 --> 00:24:49,421
that, yeah, that early cyber geneticists
were kind of fantasizing about.

408
00:24:49,521 --> 00:24:53,992
And I think there's like a famous quote
that says that Walmart

409
00:24:53,992 --> 00:24:58,163
has the same GDP as Sweden, I think.

410
00:24:58,263 --> 00:24:59,464
And so if you're trying

411
00:24:59,464 --> 00:25:03,301
to imagine Wal-Mart as a country,

412
00:25:03,368 --> 00:25:07,706
the way that it's running its economy,
it has a lot of kind of potential

413
00:25:07,706 --> 00:25:13,545
for like socialistic economies
to actually be executed.

414
00:25:13,645 --> 00:25:17,816
But I guess they probably wouldn't
approve of like unionization and.

415
00:25:17,883 --> 00:25:20,151
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess

416
00:25:20,151 --> 00:25:25,790
there's these ideas are all happening
in late sixties seventies

417
00:25:25,991 --> 00:25:30,562
and did have a lot of influence on things
later on.

418
00:25:30,795 --> 00:25:34,966
It just wasn't necessarily
seen as like cybernetics.

419
00:25:35,166 --> 00:25:38,770
But yeah it's interesting
to think about the way that this stuff

420
00:25:38,770 --> 00:25:43,041
has kind of bled into areas
that we wouldn't expect.

421
00:25:43,141 --> 00:25:47,779
But yeah,
the idea is like cyber fire can even,

422
00:25:47,879 --> 00:25:51,850
you know, the progression of, of Cybersyn
didn't

423
00:25:51,917 --> 00:25:57,088
have a chance to continue and see,
see where they would grow

424
00:25:57,088 --> 00:26:02,961
because in 1973 and September 10th,
one day before the impending coup,

425
00:26:02,961 --> 00:26:08,333
that would take his life sensing
maybe unrest or further instability.

426
00:26:08,333 --> 00:26:13,405
And they asked for the Cybersyn upstream
to be moved to the presidential palace

427
00:26:13,471 --> 00:26:16,441
because that would allow him more access
to the technology

428
00:26:16,441 --> 00:26:19,511
that he saw as sort of integral
to his government's success.

429
00:26:19,511 --> 00:26:24,149
But the following day,
the military took over in a violent coup

430
00:26:24,149 --> 00:26:27,519
led by Augusto Pinochet
and backed by the CIA.

431
00:26:27,519 --> 00:26:30,522
And as we now discovering
quite a few other countries

432
00:26:30,755 --> 00:26:34,259
leading to Allende's death
and dropping the country

433
00:26:34,259 --> 00:26:38,563
into a dictatorship
that would last until 1990.

434
00:26:38,663 --> 00:26:42,033
And as the presidential palace
was being bombed and overtaken

435
00:26:42,033 --> 00:26:46,204
royalists, Becker
and others raced to the office

436
00:26:46,204 --> 00:26:48,506
to save as many files
and as much information

437
00:26:48,506 --> 00:26:50,241
as they could about Project Sebastian.

438
00:26:50,241 --> 00:26:52,911
Because they really believed
in this project.

439
00:26:52,911 --> 00:26:56,481
It wasn't just like a work project
for them,

440
00:26:56,581 --> 00:27:01,419
and they escaped under
sort of incredible amounts of danger

441
00:27:01,486 --> 00:27:04,956
because Project Sebastian was a largely
so secret project to this point.

442
00:27:04,956 --> 00:27:08,560
When the military found
and sort of invaded the upstream,

443
00:27:08,627 --> 00:27:12,497
they had no idea what it was and couldn't
grasp its importance

444
00:27:12,497 --> 00:27:14,633
or how it could be useful for them
in any way.

445
00:27:14,633 --> 00:27:15,867
And they smashed it.

446
00:27:15,867 --> 00:27:19,070
They smashed it apart,
they slashed the computer screens,

447
00:27:19,170 --> 00:27:21,573
it was destroyed.

448
00:27:21,573 --> 00:27:25,910
And at the time staff of beer
was in the UK in a meeting and he received

449
00:27:25,910 --> 00:27:30,482
a message that the coup had occurred
and that Allende, his friend, had died.

450
00:27:30,548 --> 00:27:32,584
And the project, his his project.

451
00:27:32,584 --> 00:27:35,920
This project was over
and many of his friends

452
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,958
and coworkers were murdered
or in very unsafe situations.

453
00:27:40,058 --> 00:27:43,762
At this point,
I think that Flores was in prison

454
00:27:43,862 --> 00:27:48,566
and later Asperger ended up in the UK

455
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:53,038
and continued his study
and work in management, cybernetics

456
00:27:53,104 --> 00:27:56,675
and Flores,
after being released from prison via

457
00:27:56,675 --> 00:28:01,813
an Amnesty International campaign
in 1976, ended up studying in California

458
00:28:01,813 --> 00:28:05,817
and became a business consultant, later
returned to Chile

459
00:28:05,817 --> 00:28:10,021
and was a senator for a period of time
and stuff would be his son.

460
00:28:10,021 --> 00:28:13,792
Mentions
that the fire most likely had immense

461
00:28:13,792 --> 00:28:18,363
survivor's
guilt going into the project in 1971.

462
00:28:18,363 --> 00:28:21,900
He was this like management
consultant coming out of it,

463
00:28:21,966 --> 00:28:26,171
and in the following years he became this
sort of eccentric hippie hermit.

464
00:28:26,237 --> 00:28:29,908
He lived in a cottage in
Wales with no running water,

465
00:28:30,008 --> 00:28:32,711
grew this really long beard.

466
00:28:32,711 --> 00:28:37,582
But, you know, his experience with Project
Cybersyn was hugely influential

467
00:28:37,615 --> 00:28:41,653
on his future concepts
and sort of a general understanding

468
00:28:41,653 --> 00:28:45,857
of cybernetics, and it really played
a huge role in shaping that field.

469
00:28:46,091 --> 00:28:50,662
So, you know, it's sad to think of
what could have been on so many levels

470
00:28:50,895 --> 00:28:55,333
for Chile itself and and for cybernetics.

471
00:28:55,433 --> 00:28:57,736
But I think it's important to see this

472
00:28:57,736 --> 00:29:01,873
not as a sort of a full stop,
but as an element of a really strong

473
00:29:01,973 --> 00:29:06,244
unit, creative, forward
thinking tech history in Chile.

474
00:29:06,311 --> 00:29:08,880
And it wasn't a case of this
kind of UK team

475
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,217
or person
coming in and kind of taking over.

476
00:29:12,283 --> 00:29:16,521
But it was really a true
collaboration between, you know,

477
00:29:16,621 --> 00:29:19,290
government designers,

478
00:29:19,290 --> 00:29:22,861
people in tech in Chile,
just getting a little bit

479
00:29:22,861 --> 00:29:27,832
of massive expertise on this one
specific aspect, the cybernetics aspect.

480
00:29:27,832 --> 00:29:30,635
But they had they had all the other stuff.

481
00:29:30,635 --> 00:29:33,938
You know,
it's like it was this true collaboration.

482
00:29:34,005 --> 00:29:37,642
And I think that the failure
of the projects in this case wasn't

483
00:29:37,642 --> 00:29:41,646
like a proven failure of the tech,

484
00:29:41,713 --> 00:29:44,249
but it came about through international

485
00:29:44,249 --> 00:29:48,186
intervention and geopolitics.

486
00:29:48,253 --> 00:29:52,490
So I don't think we can look at it
and be like, well, it didn't work out.

487
00:29:52,490 --> 00:29:56,661
I mean, same with like the socialist
experiment or whatever, but you can't

488
00:29:56,661 --> 00:30:01,699
look at it and say, This is proof
that this is this would never work.

489
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,034
We tried it.

490
00:30:03,034 --> 00:30:06,404
It doesn't work
because there's no way to know.

491
00:30:06,504 --> 00:30:13,211
It was completely like it was destroyed
for sort of geopolitical reasons,

492
00:30:13,311 --> 00:30:14,946
and it could have

493
00:30:14,946 --> 00:30:17,882
turned into
who knows what it could have turned into.

494
00:30:17,882 --> 00:30:20,218
Yeah, for our future.

495
00:30:20,218 --> 00:30:24,289
It's so inspiring what happened,
because also it was

496
00:30:24,389 --> 00:30:27,091
one of the only early socialist

497
00:30:27,091 --> 00:30:33,164
cybernetic projects where you had people
at the top that were really motivated

498
00:30:33,164 --> 00:30:36,601
and actually really cared,
especially when you had

499
00:30:36,601 --> 00:30:39,871
that moment of Allende.

500
00:30:39,871 --> 00:30:44,242
Looking at the image that Stafford Behar
was drawing

501
00:30:44,242 --> 00:30:48,479
about the kind of symbiote nature
of like the servers, right.

502
00:30:48,479 --> 00:30:49,981
And the screens

503
00:30:49,981 --> 00:30:54,552
and there was this this arrow that would
that kept going back and forth of the

504
00:30:54,619 --> 00:30:59,691
what's it called, the circular model
or recursive model working on models.

505
00:30:59,791 --> 00:31:05,129
And then he pointed to that relationship
and said, oh, the people as in like

506
00:31:05,129 --> 00:31:10,735
the people, the people's relationship
to the government is this symbiotic thing.

507
00:31:10,802 --> 00:31:15,073
And you had this network
that represented that in this moment.

508
00:31:15,073 --> 00:31:17,175
I think that really spoke true

509
00:31:17,175 --> 00:31:20,979
to how he felt about this project
and how inspirational it was to him.

510
00:31:20,979 --> 00:31:22,847
And that's really special.

511
00:31:22,847 --> 00:31:26,951
You don't really usually have people
at the top that really care.

512
00:31:27,051 --> 00:31:27,452
Yeah.

513
00:31:27,452 --> 00:31:32,056
And I think that the other special thing
about it was that Allende was a doctor.

514
00:31:32,156 --> 00:31:35,760
And this model is really based on

515
00:31:35,827 --> 00:31:39,931
like the human body
and how things move throughout,

516
00:31:39,931 --> 00:31:44,035
how systems and networks
move throughout the body. And

517
00:31:44,102 --> 00:31:47,105
that in
that sort of just that initial discussion

518
00:31:47,238 --> 00:31:49,540
with Stafford Behar and Allende,

519
00:31:49,540 --> 00:31:54,178
he was impressed that Allende could really

520
00:31:54,245 --> 00:31:57,181
understand that the way that this

521
00:31:57,181 --> 00:32:01,286
recursive model works,
because he had a really

522
00:32:01,486 --> 00:32:04,489
a real understanding
of of how the human body works.

523
00:32:04,622 --> 00:32:06,991
That's beautiful.

524
00:32:06,991 --> 00:32:11,329
So we'll have some links
in the show notes to my research

525
00:32:11,329 --> 00:32:15,266
and some further information to check out
if you're interested.

526
00:32:15,500 --> 00:32:18,369
My project is on external pages

527
00:32:18,369 --> 00:32:21,005
dot com, though it's quite

528
00:32:21,005 --> 00:32:22,807
artistic and speculative.

529
00:32:22,807 --> 00:32:26,678
And if you want more information,

530
00:32:26,744 --> 00:32:29,914
Peter Medina's book is really Good
Cybernetic Revolutionaries,

531
00:32:29,914 --> 00:32:33,084
and there's also a Chilean research

532
00:32:33,084 --> 00:32:37,689
project called the Counterculture Room,
and they do a lot of work

533
00:32:37,689 --> 00:32:42,193
to document and capture this history
through interviews in Spanish.

534
00:32:42,193 --> 00:32:48,733
Some of them are on YouTube and they did
a recreation of the Upstream as well.

535
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:49,934
Yeah,

536
00:32:49,934 --> 00:32:53,104
I also just looked up the Walmart
reference

537
00:32:53,137 --> 00:32:57,141
and it's called the People's
Republic of Wal-Mart.

538
00:32:57,275 --> 00:32:58,509
Yeah, it's on Verso.

539
00:32:58,509 --> 00:32:59,944
If people want to check that out.

540
00:32:59,944 --> 00:33:03,181
It looks pretty interesting. Yes.

541
00:33:03,247 --> 00:33:03,715
Okay.

542
00:33:03,715 --> 00:33:06,150
Well, we hope you enjoyed this episode.

543
00:33:06,150 --> 00:33:11,022
It's been fun to have an excuse
to delve into this research.

544
00:33:11,022 --> 00:33:14,792
Again, next episode,
What what is our topic?

545
00:33:14,792 --> 00:33:19,597
And next, we're talking about the Soviet

546
00:33:19,664 --> 00:33:24,669
distributed network called OG,
which was also being developed

547
00:33:24,669 --> 00:33:29,407
in the seventies around the same time
a little bit later.

548
00:33:29,474 --> 00:33:33,811
But yeah, we'll also look at the trials
and tribulations of that,

549
00:33:33,878 --> 00:33:39,550
the failures and the successes,
more general failures, successes.

550
00:33:39,617 --> 00:33:42,286
Some some things came out of it anyway,

551
00:33:42,286 --> 00:33:45,523
and I'm excited about that one a lot.

552
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:47,992
Great. And looking forward to it.

553
00:33:47,992 --> 00:33:51,362
Well,
thank you everyone for listening where

554
00:33:51,629 --> 00:33:55,800
we're excited to start this journey,
this research journey.

555
00:33:55,867 --> 00:33:59,804
And yeah,
I can't believe we're doing this.

556
00:33:59,904 --> 00:34:02,640
This is our first episode
that's so exciting.

557
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,643
I feel like we should have a little cake
or something.

558
00:34:05,676 --> 00:34:08,112
I would like some cake

559
00:34:08,179 --> 00:34:10,081
if you wish to.

560
00:34:10,081 --> 00:34:13,084
What do you say your podcast
like and subscribe?

561
00:34:13,117 --> 00:34:15,420
Write a writer review.

562
00:34:15,420 --> 00:34:16,854
That would be excellent.

563
00:34:16,854 --> 00:34:18,022
Email us.

564
00:34:18,022 --> 00:34:23,061
Email us our friend
the computer at gmail dot com exac

565
00:34:23,061 --> 00:34:26,731
we one word Yes,

566
00:34:26,798 --> 00:34:28,366
it's a long name.

567
00:34:28,366 --> 00:34:30,334
All right. We will.

568
00:34:30,334 --> 00:34:33,337
We'll be back with you soon. Yes.

569
00:34:33,504 --> 00:34:35,773
Thank you for listening. Right.